Other bets that yield relatively good odds for craps players include the Pass Line and Don't Pass Line bets, where the house has only a 1.4% edge and less if you're playing with single or double odds. The Place Bet of 6 or 8 is also worthy of your chips because it only carries a 1.52% advantage for the casino.
Kajot casino online. There are many different types of bets that you can place in a game of craps. Here are the bets that you can place in the game:
Pass line bet
The FREE ODDS AFTER PASS LINE bet matches your original PASS LINE bet and is placed only after the POINT is established. The rules for this bet are the same as with the PASS LINE bet. In case the PASS LINE bet wins, both the original PASS LINE bet and the FREE ODDS AFTER PASS LINE bet are paid. The pass line and don't pass wagers are the most commonly placed bets in craps and also the most straightforward. A shooter will usually have to place one of them before making their come-out roll; and in some casinos, players must make one of them if they also want to place other wagers.
The PASS LINE BET in craps is placed on 'PASS LINE'. It wins if the COME OUT roll is seven or eleven and loses if two, three or twelve is rolled.
In case the COME OUT roll is four, five, six, eight, nine or ten, the point is established. To win the bet, you need to roll the point before a seven is thrown. In case a seven is rolled before the point, the bet loses.
Once a point is established, the player is not allowed to change or remove his bet.
Don't pass bet
The DON'T PASS bet is placed on the 'DON'T PASS BAR'. A DON'T PASS bet wins when the COME OUT roll is two or three and loses in case the player rolls seven or eleven. If 12 is rolled, it is a tie and the play is continued.
In case the COME OUT roll is four, five, six, eight, nine or ten, the point is established and in order to win the bet, the player needs to roll a seven before the point is rolled again.
In case the point gets rolled before seven, the DON'T PASS bet loses.
Once a point is established, the player is not allowed to change or remove his bet on the craps table.
Come bet
A COME bet may be placed after the POINT is established only. The rules for the COME BETS are the same as with the PASS LINE bet.
The COME bet is placed on the COME field on the Craps table. It wins if the roll is seven or eleven and loses in case a two, three or eleven is rolled.
If the roll is four, five, six, eight, nine or ten, a COME POINT is established. To win the wager, the COME POINT has to be rolled before seven is rolled. In case seven is rolled before the COME POINT, the bet loses.
Once a point is established, the craps player is not allowed to change or remove his bet.
Don't come bet
A DON'T COME bet in craps may be placed after the POINT is established only. The rules for the DON'T COME BETS are the same as with the DON'T PASS LINE bet.
The DON'T COME bet is placed on the DON'T COME BAR field on the Craps table. It wins if the roll is two or three and loses in case a seven or eleven is rolled. In case twelve is rolled, it is a tie and the play continues.
If the roll four, five, six, eight, nine or ten, a COME POINT is established on the Craps table. To win the bet, a seven needs to be rolled before the COME POINT. If the COME POINT is repeated before the player rolls seven, the DON'T COME bet loses.
Once a point is established, the player is not allowed to change or remove his bet.
Place bets
The PLACE bets are placed only on the following numbers: four, five, six, eight, nine, or ten.
Place bet to win
The WIN field on the craps table is where the players may place PLACE BET TO WIN bets. You can win the bet by rolling the place number before a seven is rolled. The bet loses, in case the seven is rolled first.
The PLACE BET TO WIN may be placed or removed at any time.
Place bet to lose
The LOSE field on the craps table is where the players may place PLACE BET TO LOSE bets. You can win the bet by rolling seven before the place number is rolled. The bet loses, in case the place number is rolled first.
The PLACE BET TO LOSE may be placed or removed at any time.
Free odds bet
In craps, there are FREE ODDS bets which are either placed on the point or on the come point.
Note, that you have to be carefull and make sure you bet the right amount so that the payout you would get is even. On four and ten, the payout is always even. On six and eight, you should bet in multiples of $5. On five and nine, you should bet in multiples of $2.
Always keep in mind that the PASS/DON'T PASS bet determines the Free Odds bet's value.
Free odds after pass line
The FREE ODDS AFTER PASS LINE bet matches your original PASS LINE bet and is placed only after the POINT is established. The rules for this bet are the same as with the PASS LINE bet.
In case the PASS LINE bet wins, both the original PASS LINE bet and the FREE ODDS AFTER PASS LINE bet are paid.
The FREE ODDS AFTER PASS LINE bet may be placed or removed at any time, once the point is established.
Free odds after don't pass line
The FREE ODDS AFTER DON'T PASS LINE bet matches your original DON'T PASS LINE bet and is placed only after the point is established. The rules for this bet are the same as with the DON'T PASS LINE bet.
In case the DON'T PASS LINE bet wins, both the original DON'T PASS LINE bet and the FREE ODDS AFTER DON'T PASS LINE bet are paid.
The FREE ODDS AFTER DON'T PASS LINE bet may be placed or removed at any time, once the point is established.
Free odds after a come bet
The FREE ODDS AFTER A COME bet matches your original COME bet and is placed only after the point is established. The rules for this bet are the same as with the COME bet.
In case the COME bet wins, both the original COME bet and the FREE ODDS AFTER A COME bet are paid.
The FREE ODDS AFTER A COME bet may be placed or removed at any time, once the point is established.
Free odds after a don't come bet
The FREE ODDS AFTER A DON'T COME bet matches your original DON'T COME bet and is placed only after the point is established. The rules for this bet are the same as with the DON'T COME bet.
In case the DON'T COME bet wins, both the original DON'T COME bet and the FREE ODDS AFTER A DON'T COME bet are paid.
The FREE ODDS AFTER A DON'T COME bet may be placed or removed at any time, once the point is established.
Hard way bets
The HARD WAY bet may be placed on four, six, eight or ten.
The craps player may place this bet on the image of the dice field below the Any Seven one. In order to win the bet, you have to roll the specified number as a double (the hardway) before a seven is rolled or rolling the number as a non-double (the easyway). If you do not succeed, you lose your bet.
The HARD WAY bets may be placed or removed at any time.
Big 6 bets
To win the BIG 6 bet, you need to roll six before seven is rolled. In case seven is rolled before a six, then the bet loses.
The BIG 6 bets may be placed or removed at any time.
Big 8 bets
To win the BIG 6 bet, you need to roll eight before seven is rolled. In case seven is rolled before a eight, then the bet loses.
The BIG 6 bets may be placed or removed at any time.
Field bet
The FIELD bet is placed on the FIELD field on the craps table. To win the FIELD bet you need to roll two, three, four, nine, ten, eleven or twelve. The FIELD bet loses if five, six, eight or seven is rolled.
Horn bet
The HORN bet is placed on the EEEEE/CCCCC IMAGE field on the craps table and the players may place the bet on E, C or both. The E bet wins in case eleven is rolled, while C wins in case two, three or twelve is rolled. The E/C bet wins in case two, three, eleven or twelve is rolled.
The information on this website does not promise or guarantee winnings in any way. Gambling with real money poses a risk and everyone must do it wisely, under his own responsibility and will.
Thread Rating:
I was reading through some of the Wizard's answers to questions and have read some of the other threads about how taking full odds against your pass/don't pass will not change the amount of money a player will lose, but it mentions the reduction of the house edge.
Taken from the website:
'Hi, if person A makes 1000 consecutive bets on the pass line without backing up his bet, and person B makes 1000 consecutive bets on the pass line and he takes 100X odds whenever possible, doesn't each person lose the same amount of money?
BLAKE HAAS FROM THOUSAND OAKS
Yes. I can just imagine the follow up question to be why I recommend taking the odds if doing so doesn't help to win more. What I suggest is betting less on the pass so that your need for action is mostly met by a full odds bet. For example if you are comfortable betting about $90 per bet, and the casino allows 5x odds, then I would drop the pass line bet to $15 and bet $75 on the odds. That will lower the overall house edge from 1.414% to 0.326%.'
This is my confusion. As mentioned in other threads, the free odds has a 0% house edge and therefore the only money affected as far as house edge goes is the pass line (for example) at 1.41%. However, the Wizard stated that the house edge was lowered from 1.41% to .32%.
Does this mean that when we calculate the Theoretical Win (defined: Handle x House Edge (or Time Played x Avg bet x Decisions per Hour) x H/E) for the example from the quote, that the casino uses the adjusted .32% or the original 1.41%?
The obvious implication would be an expected loss of revenue on the craps table due to the lowering of the house edge. And subsequently, does offering greater odds actually decrease the amount of revenue the casino can make from the pass line bet?
Craps No Pass Line Strategy
RSThanks in advance for those that take the time to help with this.
I was reading through some of the Wizard's answers to questions and have read some of the other threads about how taking full odds against your pass/don't pass will not change the amount of money a player will lose, but it mentions the reduction of the house edge.
Taken from the website:
'Hi, if person A makes 1000 consecutive bets on the pass line without backing up his bet, and person B makes 1000 consecutive bets on the pass line and he takes 100X odds whenever possible, doesn't each person lose the same amount of money?
BLAKE HAAS FROM THOUSAND OAKS
Yes. I can just imagine the follow up question to be why I recommend taking the odds if doing so doesn't help to win more. What I suggest is betting less on the pass so that your need for action is mostly met by a full odds bet. For example if you are comfortable betting about $90 per bet, and the casino allows 5x odds, then I would drop the pass line bet to $15 and bet $75 on the odds. That will lower the overall house edge from 1.414% to 0.326%.'
This is my confusion. As mentioned in other threads, the free odds has a 0% house edge and therefore the only money affected as far as house edge goes is the pass line (for example) at 1.41%. However, the Wizard stated that the house edge was lowered from 1.41% to .32%.
Does this mean that when we calculate the Theoretical Win (defined: Handle x House Edge (or Time Played x Avg bet x Decisions per Hour) x H/E) for the example from the quote, that the casino uses the adjusted .32% or the original 1.41%?
The obvious implication would be an expected loss of revenue on the craps table due to the lowering of the house edge. And subsequently, does offering greater odds actually decrease the amount of revenue the casino can make from the pass line bet?
Essentially, it's like taking 500ml of eggnog that has 500 calories, adding 500ml of water to it, and saying now it has fewer calories because it used to be 1 calorie per 1 ml but now it's 0.5 calories per 1 ml.
The house edge on the pass bet is 1.41%. Doesn't matter if you have 2x odds, 10x odds, or 100x odds. That pass line bet still has a 1.41% HE. The odds bet, similarly, is always going to be 0%.*
If you bet an incorrect amount on odds, for example, an amount that isn't divisible by 5 when betting on the 6 or 8, or an odd amount when betting on 5 or 9, then there's going to be a slight house edge, because you're going to get shorted by however many cents when it wins because they round down.
IME, when rating players, a casino is going to use a 'blended theo', which means they don't track which bets you make, just how much you're betting. They figure for every $1,000 on the table, some is going to be on pass line, some place bets, and other money on center action, and they may conclude the average or blended theoretical is (just pulling out a random number) 4%. So they'll just assign everything you bet to have a 4% theoretical loss (assuming 4% is the number they come up with).
The exception, of course, is the odds bet. That differs. Some casinos will rate your odds and some won't. Even at the same casino, some floormen will rate your odds and others won't. If at both casinos you always bet $10 pass with $50 odds, one casino might rate you as having $10 average bet while the other may rate you as having a $60 average bet.
Essentially, it's like taking 500ml of eggnog that has 500 calories, adding 500ml of water to it, and saying now it has fewer calories because it used to be 1 calorie per 1 ml but now it's 0.5 calories per 1 ml.
The house edge on the pass bet is 1.41%. Doesn't matter if you have 2x odds, 10x odds, or 100x odds. That pass line bet still has a 1.41% HE. The odds bet, similarly, is always going to be 0%.*
This is where I was leaning as well. However, if the HE truly doesn't change, why does he even mention it or state that it gets lower? Doesn't that just create confusion?
IME, when rating players, a casino is going to use a 'blended theo', which means they don't track which bets you make, just how much you're betting. They figure for every $1,000 on the table, some is going to be on pass line, some place bets, and other money on center action, and they may conclude the average or blended theoretical is (just pulling out a random number) 4%. So they'll just assign everything you bet to have a 4% theoretical loss (assuming 4% is the number they come up with).
The exception, of course, is the odds bet. That differs. Some casinos will rate your odds and some won't. Even at the same casino, some floormen will rate your odds and others won't. If at both casinos you always bet $10 pass with $50 odds, one casino might rate you as having $10 average bet while the other may rate you as having a $60 average bet.
This is a great example for how casinos lose money in promotions to players. If the odds bets are not generating revenue (due to having no HE) but are still being applied to the player's average bet against the 'blended theo', then the player is being rated as more worth than they actually are. The correct course of action would be to not include odds bets in average bet calculations in player ratings.RS
This is where I was leaning as well. However, if the HE truly doesn't change, why does he even mention it or state that it gets lower? Doesn't that just create confusion?
Yes it causes confusion. But I guess a reason to mention it is, if say, someone wants to bet $100 on the passline..they'd be better off to bet $20 on the pass with $80 in odds, for instance. So you've gone from 1.41% of $100 which is $1.41 to 1.41% of $20 which is $0.282..but in both cases, you get the same amount of action (roughly speaking, since you don't have that $100 in action on every roll, only once a point is established), but the latter has a lower expected loss than the former.
This is a great example for how casinos lose money in promotions to players. If the odds bets are not generating revenue (due to having no HE) but are still being applied to the player's average bet against the 'blended theo', then the player is being rated as more worth than they actually are. The correct course of action would be to not include odds bets in average bet calculations in player ratings.
Yes, the player would be rated as having a higher rated theo than he really should. I don't really have an answer to that, or a better way to do it, other than having a floor person note how much each player has on each different type of bet...which isn't feasible. As far as why they may rate odds, I really don't know. The only thing I can possibly think of is because people like being rated for a higher amount (and, thus, would be unhappy if they got rated on 'only' their pass-line bet). Casinos don't always make the best decisions and sometimes it may be along the line of, 'Yeah..it's not the right way to do it, but it's a whole hell of a lot easier, and it's all going to average out anyway. Some may get a benefit while others get a bit shorted, but whatever'.
Yes, the player would be rated as having a higher rated theo than he really should. I don't really have an answer to that, or a better way to do it, other than having a floor person note how much each player has on each different type of bet...which isn't feasible. As far as why they may rate odds, I really don't know. The only thing I can possibly think of is because people like being rated for a higher amount (and, thus, would be unhappy if they got rated on 'only' their pass-line bet). Casinos don't always make the best decisions and sometimes it may be along the line of, 's not the right way to do it, but it's a whole hell of a lot easier, and it's all going to average out anyway. Some may get a benefit while others get a bit shorted, but whatever'.
We do it because it would cause a skewed representation of the player's actual worth to the casino. Most promotions utilize the theo in some way in their decision making process when giving back points because they are after all literally giving back a percentage portion of their revenue they just earned as a thank you. Most casinos may opt to reinvest 25% of the revenue earned from the player back into that player in various forms, whether it be in points, comps, mailers, etc.
Due to high variation of bets and different HE's on the craps table, the casino should have a rating system that encompasses slow, medium, and fast pace along with low, med, high action.. a player playing the props would be more profitable than a player just playing the pass line and game pace affects decisions per hour. However, as you stated, most casinos find it too difficult for their boxpersons to rate players and watch the game and usually just assign a single blended theo. This means a low profit player gets more in promos than they deserve and the high profit players get less in promos than they deserve. It's a flaw that TG management should fix if they have it.
Yes it causes confusion. But I guess a reason to mention it is, if say, someone wants to bet $100 on the ey'd be better off to bet $20 on the pass with $80 in odds, for instance. So you've gone from 1.41% of $100 which is $1.41 to 1.41% of $20 which is $0.282..but in both cases, you get the same amount of action (roughly speaking, since you don't have that $100 in action on every roll, only once a point is established), but the latter has a lower expected loss than the former.
What you've described is how much theo the casino is making off the pass line. Basically betting the entire amount or just $20 of it because literally whatever you place behind doesn't matter. But it has to right? Otherwise, Michael never would have specifically stated it lowered the house edge. So then, why is he stating the house edge is lowered from 1.41% to .32%? No one on the forums has yet to answer or explain well why he stated it is lowered to that. They just keep saying that the house edge stays 1.41%. Is anyone able to show the math that makes it fall to .32% like Michael stated?odiousgambit
for craps, you want to add '/basics' to the url that is connected to that link seen there now to get:
https://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/basics/
for how to figure the HE on line bets combined with odds,
Combined Pass and Buying Odds
The player edge on the combined pass and buying odds is the average player gain divided by the average player bet. The gain on the pass line is always -7/495 and the gain on the odds is always 0. The expected bet depends on what multiple of odds you are allowed. Lets assume full double odds, or that the pass line bet is $2, the odds bet on a 4, 5, 9, and 10 is $4, and the odds on a 6 or 8 is $5.
The average gain is -2×(7/495) = -14/495.
The average bet is 2 + (3/36)×4 + (4/36)×4 + (5/36)×5 + (5/36)×5 + (4/36)×4 + (3/36)×4] =
2 + 106/36 = 178/36
The player edge is (-14/495)/(178/36) = -0.572%.
The general formula if you can take x times odds on the 6 and 8, y times on the 5 and 9, and z times on the 4 and 10 is (-7 / 495) / [ 1 + ((5x + 4y + 3z) / 18) ]
see last para and see if you can figure it out for the one you are referring to
https://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/appendix/1/
Place Bet In Craps
BlackjackLoverI was reading through some of the Wizard's answers to questions and have read some of the other threads about how taking full odds against your pass/don't pass will not change the amount of money a player will lose, but it mentions the reduction of the house edge.
the Wizard answer of 'yes' is so wrong.It is NOT how much actual money they lose, but the ratio of the net/total resolved wagers
will be very close to each other with more and more resolved wagers.
The Law of Large numbers at wikipedia
' the law of large numbers (LLN) is a theorem that describes the result of performing the same experiment a large number of times. According to the law, the average of the results obtained from a large number of trials should be close to the expected value, and will tend to become closer as more trials are performed.'
the Wizard also stating the house edge is lowered means it is a 'combined house edge' over the average bet between the flat bet and the odds bet.
I simulated this years ago and I know someone did even a larger sim than mine
I had 2 players at the SAME craps table, where
one makes a $5 pass line bet 1000 times, no odds
the other makes a $5 pass line bet 1000 times, and 100 times odds on every point established
(it should be very clear their average resolved wager COMBINED is way different)
this was then done 10,000 times and the data collected.
How many times did they both end up at the same amount of money after the 1000 wagers were completed?
now we added all the sessions together for each player
who lost way more actual money than the other?
or did they lose the same amount of money?
(over 1000 wagers done 10,000 times, should be easy to guess - 10 million bets for each player)
odds player lost: $998,620
not EVEN the same
this shows clearly the Wizard answer of 'yes' in that Ask the Wizard is wrong.
my code is correct as I used the WinCraps risk of ruin code that is free at the website
(I also tested it to see if it was 100% accurate, and it is)
odds adds variance without adding to the -ev (that is good for the player)
we would need to show some math to explain this
A COME bet may be placed after the POINT is established only. The rules for the COME BETS are the same as with the PASS LINE bet.
The COME bet is placed on the COME field on the Craps table. It wins if the roll is seven or eleven and loses in case a two, three or eleven is rolled.
If the roll is four, five, six, eight, nine or ten, a COME POINT is established. To win the wager, the COME POINT has to be rolled before seven is rolled. In case seven is rolled before the COME POINT, the bet loses.
Once a point is established, the craps player is not allowed to change or remove his bet.
Don't come bet
A DON'T COME bet in craps may be placed after the POINT is established only. The rules for the DON'T COME BETS are the same as with the DON'T PASS LINE bet.
The DON'T COME bet is placed on the DON'T COME BAR field on the Craps table. It wins if the roll is two or three and loses in case a seven or eleven is rolled. In case twelve is rolled, it is a tie and the play continues.
If the roll four, five, six, eight, nine or ten, a COME POINT is established on the Craps table. To win the bet, a seven needs to be rolled before the COME POINT. If the COME POINT is repeated before the player rolls seven, the DON'T COME bet loses.
Once a point is established, the player is not allowed to change or remove his bet.
Place bets
The PLACE bets are placed only on the following numbers: four, five, six, eight, nine, or ten.
Place bet to win
The WIN field on the craps table is where the players may place PLACE BET TO WIN bets. You can win the bet by rolling the place number before a seven is rolled. The bet loses, in case the seven is rolled first.
The PLACE BET TO WIN may be placed or removed at any time.
Place bet to lose
The LOSE field on the craps table is where the players may place PLACE BET TO LOSE bets. You can win the bet by rolling seven before the place number is rolled. The bet loses, in case the place number is rolled first.
The PLACE BET TO LOSE may be placed or removed at any time.
Free odds bet
In craps, there are FREE ODDS bets which are either placed on the point or on the come point.
Note, that you have to be carefull and make sure you bet the right amount so that the payout you would get is even. On four and ten, the payout is always even. On six and eight, you should bet in multiples of $5. On five and nine, you should bet in multiples of $2.
Always keep in mind that the PASS/DON'T PASS bet determines the Free Odds bet's value.
Free odds after pass line
The FREE ODDS AFTER PASS LINE bet matches your original PASS LINE bet and is placed only after the POINT is established. The rules for this bet are the same as with the PASS LINE bet.
In case the PASS LINE bet wins, both the original PASS LINE bet and the FREE ODDS AFTER PASS LINE bet are paid.
The FREE ODDS AFTER PASS LINE bet may be placed or removed at any time, once the point is established.
Free odds after don't pass line
The FREE ODDS AFTER DON'T PASS LINE bet matches your original DON'T PASS LINE bet and is placed only after the point is established. The rules for this bet are the same as with the DON'T PASS LINE bet.
In case the DON'T PASS LINE bet wins, both the original DON'T PASS LINE bet and the FREE ODDS AFTER DON'T PASS LINE bet are paid.
The FREE ODDS AFTER DON'T PASS LINE bet may be placed or removed at any time, once the point is established.
Free odds after a come bet
The FREE ODDS AFTER A COME bet matches your original COME bet and is placed only after the point is established. The rules for this bet are the same as with the COME bet.
In case the COME bet wins, both the original COME bet and the FREE ODDS AFTER A COME bet are paid.
The FREE ODDS AFTER A COME bet may be placed or removed at any time, once the point is established.
Free odds after a don't come bet
The FREE ODDS AFTER A DON'T COME bet matches your original DON'T COME bet and is placed only after the point is established. The rules for this bet are the same as with the DON'T COME bet.
In case the DON'T COME bet wins, both the original DON'T COME bet and the FREE ODDS AFTER A DON'T COME bet are paid.
The FREE ODDS AFTER A DON'T COME bet may be placed or removed at any time, once the point is established.
Hard way bets
The HARD WAY bet may be placed on four, six, eight or ten.
The craps player may place this bet on the image of the dice field below the Any Seven one. In order to win the bet, you have to roll the specified number as a double (the hardway) before a seven is rolled or rolling the number as a non-double (the easyway). If you do not succeed, you lose your bet.
The HARD WAY bets may be placed or removed at any time.
Big 6 bets
To win the BIG 6 bet, you need to roll six before seven is rolled. In case seven is rolled before a six, then the bet loses.
The BIG 6 bets may be placed or removed at any time.
Big 8 bets
To win the BIG 6 bet, you need to roll eight before seven is rolled. In case seven is rolled before a eight, then the bet loses.
The BIG 6 bets may be placed or removed at any time.
Field bet
The FIELD bet is placed on the FIELD field on the craps table. To win the FIELD bet you need to roll two, three, four, nine, ten, eleven or twelve. The FIELD bet loses if five, six, eight or seven is rolled.
Horn bet
The HORN bet is placed on the EEEEE/CCCCC IMAGE field on the craps table and the players may place the bet on E, C or both. The E bet wins in case eleven is rolled, while C wins in case two, three or twelve is rolled. The E/C bet wins in case two, three, eleven or twelve is rolled.
The information on this website does not promise or guarantee winnings in any way. Gambling with real money poses a risk and everyone must do it wisely, under his own responsibility and will.
Thread Rating:
I was reading through some of the Wizard's answers to questions and have read some of the other threads about how taking full odds against your pass/don't pass will not change the amount of money a player will lose, but it mentions the reduction of the house edge.
Taken from the website:
'Hi, if person A makes 1000 consecutive bets on the pass line without backing up his bet, and person B makes 1000 consecutive bets on the pass line and he takes 100X odds whenever possible, doesn't each person lose the same amount of money?
BLAKE HAAS FROM THOUSAND OAKS
Yes. I can just imagine the follow up question to be why I recommend taking the odds if doing so doesn't help to win more. What I suggest is betting less on the pass so that your need for action is mostly met by a full odds bet. For example if you are comfortable betting about $90 per bet, and the casino allows 5x odds, then I would drop the pass line bet to $15 and bet $75 on the odds. That will lower the overall house edge from 1.414% to 0.326%.'
This is my confusion. As mentioned in other threads, the free odds has a 0% house edge and therefore the only money affected as far as house edge goes is the pass line (for example) at 1.41%. However, the Wizard stated that the house edge was lowered from 1.41% to .32%.
Does this mean that when we calculate the Theoretical Win (defined: Handle x House Edge (or Time Played x Avg bet x Decisions per Hour) x H/E) for the example from the quote, that the casino uses the adjusted .32% or the original 1.41%?
The obvious implication would be an expected loss of revenue on the craps table due to the lowering of the house edge. And subsequently, does offering greater odds actually decrease the amount of revenue the casino can make from the pass line bet?
Craps No Pass Line Strategy
RSThanks in advance for those that take the time to help with this.
I was reading through some of the Wizard's answers to questions and have read some of the other threads about how taking full odds against your pass/don't pass will not change the amount of money a player will lose, but it mentions the reduction of the house edge.
Taken from the website:
'Hi, if person A makes 1000 consecutive bets on the pass line without backing up his bet, and person B makes 1000 consecutive bets on the pass line and he takes 100X odds whenever possible, doesn't each person lose the same amount of money?
BLAKE HAAS FROM THOUSAND OAKS
Yes. I can just imagine the follow up question to be why I recommend taking the odds if doing so doesn't help to win more. What I suggest is betting less on the pass so that your need for action is mostly met by a full odds bet. For example if you are comfortable betting about $90 per bet, and the casino allows 5x odds, then I would drop the pass line bet to $15 and bet $75 on the odds. That will lower the overall house edge from 1.414% to 0.326%.'
This is my confusion. As mentioned in other threads, the free odds has a 0% house edge and therefore the only money affected as far as house edge goes is the pass line (for example) at 1.41%. However, the Wizard stated that the house edge was lowered from 1.41% to .32%.
Does this mean that when we calculate the Theoretical Win (defined: Handle x House Edge (or Time Played x Avg bet x Decisions per Hour) x H/E) for the example from the quote, that the casino uses the adjusted .32% or the original 1.41%?
The obvious implication would be an expected loss of revenue on the craps table due to the lowering of the house edge. And subsequently, does offering greater odds actually decrease the amount of revenue the casino can make from the pass line bet?
Essentially, it's like taking 500ml of eggnog that has 500 calories, adding 500ml of water to it, and saying now it has fewer calories because it used to be 1 calorie per 1 ml but now it's 0.5 calories per 1 ml.
The house edge on the pass bet is 1.41%. Doesn't matter if you have 2x odds, 10x odds, or 100x odds. That pass line bet still has a 1.41% HE. The odds bet, similarly, is always going to be 0%.*
If you bet an incorrect amount on odds, for example, an amount that isn't divisible by 5 when betting on the 6 or 8, or an odd amount when betting on 5 or 9, then there's going to be a slight house edge, because you're going to get shorted by however many cents when it wins because they round down.
IME, when rating players, a casino is going to use a 'blended theo', which means they don't track which bets you make, just how much you're betting. They figure for every $1,000 on the table, some is going to be on pass line, some place bets, and other money on center action, and they may conclude the average or blended theoretical is (just pulling out a random number) 4%. So they'll just assign everything you bet to have a 4% theoretical loss (assuming 4% is the number they come up with).
The exception, of course, is the odds bet. That differs. Some casinos will rate your odds and some won't. Even at the same casino, some floormen will rate your odds and others won't. If at both casinos you always bet $10 pass with $50 odds, one casino might rate you as having $10 average bet while the other may rate you as having a $60 average bet.
Essentially, it's like taking 500ml of eggnog that has 500 calories, adding 500ml of water to it, and saying now it has fewer calories because it used to be 1 calorie per 1 ml but now it's 0.5 calories per 1 ml.
The house edge on the pass bet is 1.41%. Doesn't matter if you have 2x odds, 10x odds, or 100x odds. That pass line bet still has a 1.41% HE. The odds bet, similarly, is always going to be 0%.*
This is where I was leaning as well. However, if the HE truly doesn't change, why does he even mention it or state that it gets lower? Doesn't that just create confusion?
IME, when rating players, a casino is going to use a 'blended theo', which means they don't track which bets you make, just how much you're betting. They figure for every $1,000 on the table, some is going to be on pass line, some place bets, and other money on center action, and they may conclude the average or blended theoretical is (just pulling out a random number) 4%. So they'll just assign everything you bet to have a 4% theoretical loss (assuming 4% is the number they come up with).
The exception, of course, is the odds bet. That differs. Some casinos will rate your odds and some won't. Even at the same casino, some floormen will rate your odds and others won't. If at both casinos you always bet $10 pass with $50 odds, one casino might rate you as having $10 average bet while the other may rate you as having a $60 average bet.
This is a great example for how casinos lose money in promotions to players. If the odds bets are not generating revenue (due to having no HE) but are still being applied to the player's average bet against the 'blended theo', then the player is being rated as more worth than they actually are. The correct course of action would be to not include odds bets in average bet calculations in player ratings.RS
This is where I was leaning as well. However, if the HE truly doesn't change, why does he even mention it or state that it gets lower? Doesn't that just create confusion?
Yes it causes confusion. But I guess a reason to mention it is, if say, someone wants to bet $100 on the passline..they'd be better off to bet $20 on the pass with $80 in odds, for instance. So you've gone from 1.41% of $100 which is $1.41 to 1.41% of $20 which is $0.282..but in both cases, you get the same amount of action (roughly speaking, since you don't have that $100 in action on every roll, only once a point is established), but the latter has a lower expected loss than the former.
This is a great example for how casinos lose money in promotions to players. If the odds bets are not generating revenue (due to having no HE) but are still being applied to the player's average bet against the 'blended theo', then the player is being rated as more worth than they actually are. The correct course of action would be to not include odds bets in average bet calculations in player ratings.
Yes, the player would be rated as having a higher rated theo than he really should. I don't really have an answer to that, or a better way to do it, other than having a floor person note how much each player has on each different type of bet...which isn't feasible. As far as why they may rate odds, I really don't know. The only thing I can possibly think of is because people like being rated for a higher amount (and, thus, would be unhappy if they got rated on 'only' their pass-line bet). Casinos don't always make the best decisions and sometimes it may be along the line of, 'Yeah..it's not the right way to do it, but it's a whole hell of a lot easier, and it's all going to average out anyway. Some may get a benefit while others get a bit shorted, but whatever'.
Yes, the player would be rated as having a higher rated theo than he really should. I don't really have an answer to that, or a better way to do it, other than having a floor person note how much each player has on each different type of bet...which isn't feasible. As far as why they may rate odds, I really don't know. The only thing I can possibly think of is because people like being rated for a higher amount (and, thus, would be unhappy if they got rated on 'only' their pass-line bet). Casinos don't always make the best decisions and sometimes it may be along the line of, 's not the right way to do it, but it's a whole hell of a lot easier, and it's all going to average out anyway. Some may get a benefit while others get a bit shorted, but whatever'.
We do it because it would cause a skewed representation of the player's actual worth to the casino. Most promotions utilize the theo in some way in their decision making process when giving back points because they are after all literally giving back a percentage portion of their revenue they just earned as a thank you. Most casinos may opt to reinvest 25% of the revenue earned from the player back into that player in various forms, whether it be in points, comps, mailers, etc.
Due to high variation of bets and different HE's on the craps table, the casino should have a rating system that encompasses slow, medium, and fast pace along with low, med, high action.. a player playing the props would be more profitable than a player just playing the pass line and game pace affects decisions per hour. However, as you stated, most casinos find it too difficult for their boxpersons to rate players and watch the game and usually just assign a single blended theo. This means a low profit player gets more in promos than they deserve and the high profit players get less in promos than they deserve. It's a flaw that TG management should fix if they have it.
Yes it causes confusion. But I guess a reason to mention it is, if say, someone wants to bet $100 on the ey'd be better off to bet $20 on the pass with $80 in odds, for instance. So you've gone from 1.41% of $100 which is $1.41 to 1.41% of $20 which is $0.282..but in both cases, you get the same amount of action (roughly speaking, since you don't have that $100 in action on every roll, only once a point is established), but the latter has a lower expected loss than the former.
What you've described is how much theo the casino is making off the pass line. Basically betting the entire amount or just $20 of it because literally whatever you place behind doesn't matter. But it has to right? Otherwise, Michael never would have specifically stated it lowered the house edge. So then, why is he stating the house edge is lowered from 1.41% to .32%? No one on the forums has yet to answer or explain well why he stated it is lowered to that. They just keep saying that the house edge stays 1.41%. Is anyone able to show the math that makes it fall to .32% like Michael stated?odiousgambit
for craps, you want to add '/basics' to the url that is connected to that link seen there now to get:
https://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/basics/
for how to figure the HE on line bets combined with odds,
Combined Pass and Buying Odds
The player edge on the combined pass and buying odds is the average player gain divided by the average player bet. The gain on the pass line is always -7/495 and the gain on the odds is always 0. The expected bet depends on what multiple of odds you are allowed. Lets assume full double odds, or that the pass line bet is $2, the odds bet on a 4, 5, 9, and 10 is $4, and the odds on a 6 or 8 is $5.
The average gain is -2×(7/495) = -14/495.
The average bet is 2 + (3/36)×4 + (4/36)×4 + (5/36)×5 + (5/36)×5 + (4/36)×4 + (3/36)×4] =
2 + 106/36 = 178/36
The player edge is (-14/495)/(178/36) = -0.572%.
The general formula if you can take x times odds on the 6 and 8, y times on the 5 and 9, and z times on the 4 and 10 is (-7 / 495) / [ 1 + ((5x + 4y + 3z) / 18) ]
see last para and see if you can figure it out for the one you are referring to
https://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/appendix/1/
Place Bet In Craps
BlackjackLoverI was reading through some of the Wizard's answers to questions and have read some of the other threads about how taking full odds against your pass/don't pass will not change the amount of money a player will lose, but it mentions the reduction of the house edge.
the Wizard answer of 'yes' is so wrong.It is NOT how much actual money they lose, but the ratio of the net/total resolved wagers
will be very close to each other with more and more resolved wagers.
The Law of Large numbers at wikipedia
' the law of large numbers (LLN) is a theorem that describes the result of performing the same experiment a large number of times. According to the law, the average of the results obtained from a large number of trials should be close to the expected value, and will tend to become closer as more trials are performed.'
the Wizard also stating the house edge is lowered means it is a 'combined house edge' over the average bet between the flat bet and the odds bet.
I simulated this years ago and I know someone did even a larger sim than mine
I had 2 players at the SAME craps table, where
one makes a $5 pass line bet 1000 times, no odds
the other makes a $5 pass line bet 1000 times, and 100 times odds on every point established
(it should be very clear their average resolved wager COMBINED is way different)
this was then done 10,000 times and the data collected.
How many times did they both end up at the same amount of money after the 1000 wagers were completed?
now we added all the sessions together for each player
who lost way more actual money than the other?
or did they lose the same amount of money?
(over 1000 wagers done 10,000 times, should be easy to guess - 10 million bets for each player)
odds player lost: $998,620
not EVEN the same
this shows clearly the Wizard answer of 'yes' in that Ask the Wizard is wrong.
my code is correct as I used the WinCraps risk of ruin code that is free at the website
(I also tested it to see if it was 100% accurate, and it is)
odds adds variance without adding to the -ev (that is good for the player)
we would need to show some math to explain this
but that is a total waste of time.
most all craps players believe what they want to believe
no more no less
- Page 1 of 7